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What a shame that nearly 4 hours were dedicated to a debate with Jenny. This was a great opportunity to discuss FF versus aversives and, despite my preferences being in the FF camp, it was refreshing to see an aversive trainer happy to chat calmly and thoughtfully on the subject. His patience with Jenny was frankly admirable and anyone watching this that may have been unsure which methods are best will likely lean towards Ivan’s as he spoke so eloquently. Maybe there is another podcast where Ivan speaks with a FF trainer who actually gives pertinent examples of how it works, why it is preferable etc, but if not then I’d love to see another debate, particularly with a FF trainer who competes in dog sports to give true balance. There were so many opportunities for Jenny to ask useful questions and also give examples of why and in what capacity FF works, but she did none of this and seemed totally unprepared. She talked initially about her dog with spine issues and how she avoided recall due to avoiding touch, which makes sense (I’ve had a dog with IVDD), but her reasoning behind why she likes to run like crazy seemed odd and not in line with her pain. I also would have liked her to have asked Ivan how he would have overcome her dog’s recall issue, or at least for Ivan to have offered that information. Clearly, as Ivan stated, her dog was capable of running therefore capable of recall, but if she connected recall with touch then that was the part of her recall training that needed work, which a FF trainer should have been able to resolve. Given Ivan does not use e collars on all dogs for every situation, and referred to her dog as not being motivated enough to recall, I was itching to hear how he believed he could have achieved recall. I also would have liked the general debate about e collars to cover in what other circumstances Ivan uses them aside from recall; are they used on reactive dogs for example? Jenny’s clarity on her beliefs was dreadful and even getting the simple point across that her concern with aversives is that in the wrong hands they are a huge welfare issue was like pulling teeth. Again, I do not use or condone aversives but at least Ivan was able to conduct a rational argument on the subject, whilst Jenny just seemed to ramble and go off on tangents. Never have a watched anything this long and felt so exasperated by a person who had every opportunity to be part of a really interesting discussion.

Wim Hoff would be laughing his lungs out watching this!

She can't profess this without functional MRI study during this procedure. I don't know who could believe this without scientific proof great video Ivan

👏👏👏👏Brave and necessary!!!✊✊✊

❤

I don’t care how many degrees she has, she is clueless! These people are being brainwashed by the liberal universities they attend. They anthrpomorphize Animals. Insanity & absurdity And thats coming from an MD, so I’m not anti education. Thanks Ivan for your practical training! And common sense things that are clearly lacking in today’s society

I was questioning en myself, if I'm too closed-minded, when I first heard of Karen and her overall BS :D

Maybe she is a genius… think about all the rich people out there that buy into the force free philosophy. They can now put their kids and dogs in therapy. MONEY GRAB!11😂😂

Sounds like she has educated herself into believing her own fantasy… please, people can’t even calm themselves 100% by deep breathing. I believe all animals, people included, learn and control themselves based on consequences, cause and effect. It’s not that complicated.

Super podcast Ivan! Keep up the great work.

Karen is a fraud and force-free is a hoax.

🤦‍♀🤦‍♀🤦‍♀again 💯agree with you

I agree with Ivan from the perspective of a teacher of the Bach Flower Essences. One of the most difficult things for my students to understand is there is difference between Emotions and Thoughts. As the owner of 2 incredible wonderful and talented genius Malinois, I would also like to comment, the instinctual drive operates their work in the world thru conditioning. Their ability to create partnership with me is thru their highly sensitive emotional awareness. This combination is what makes relationship with animals a nurturing one. It also is what separates the animals from humans. We have to journey thru life with our mental set ups which are ALL negative. It is our balance emotional state which keeps us in connection with our souls. Thank you Ivan for all that you do and I hope to afford a course with you one day. Peace

When theories like this are put before trainers that have achieved high standards, have many years experience and have extensive knowledge we see this as an insult to our intelligence. This results in dismissing this and it therefore goes unchallenged, so well played for you taking on and exposing this garbage.

Which exactly course covers the influence on emotional state on the TWC web site? Thanks

the science religion is the secular religion of western liberal democracies and it's an absolutely insane cult, i hope that the dark age which is caused by the science religions hegemony in the west will not last as long as the dark ages under catholic rule.

Ivan, let her try to handle Tarzan for half a day with her breathing protocols and let's see how it goes. Would be fun to watch.

It is funny that you try this protocoll and get the result as I Did 😂 Looking for the inhale of my dog and try to mark it was really a confusing task for my dog, even if I lower the value of the reinforcement short to zero... A thinking dog like mine is puzzeled what I may want and driven to find out -- but unfortunately he doesnt relax in this process. Always I was expecting me to be the one not clever enough to understand to make it right🙈

Nothing surprises me any more in regards to dogs & training 😞. However I have hope. Would be very interesting if Karen Overall could sit down with you for your podcast 😉👊🐾

This force free movement gets more and more crazy.

I would like to see my Boxer develop a serene, more philosophical approach to life. Where can I see the videos that document Dr Overall training dogs to do this?

Overall I'd say this lady is pretty cookoo

There is a direct correlation the longer people stay in school the dumber they tend to be.

Overall, I think she is wrong and the likes of her are responsible for more dogs ending up in kill shelters than any other reason.

So, basically all her credentials get her in this case is one big appeal to authority fallacy. I truly think I have now heard it all where crazy dog training is concerned. I sure as hell hope you bought a used copy of that book.

I wonder if this has anything to do with Caesar Milan's "nose, eyes, ears" philosophy. Like, when he's dealing with a reactive dog, he'll say that the dog's eyes are in control. Then, he'll wait until the dog starts sniffing the air, which means that the dog's nose has taken back over, which shows that the dog is now in a more curious state as opposed to a reactive one. I wonder if what Dr. Overall calls a deep breath and Caesar's eyes/nose theory are one in the same.

Another podcast please!!!!!!!!!!!

@4:00 🤣 💀 @5:55 Agreed. I seriously question it also Plausible sounding 🐂 💩 🤣 “really way out there” 🤡 Agreed! Thanks for another dose of wisdom and common sense, Ivan!

I can not imagine myself charging people money to train their dog how to deep breathing. They would propably think that i am an idiot 😂

I’d say it’s comedy but also it’s tragedy that this is even something ANYbody believes 🤦‍♀️

I dont beleave it.. Someone with that kind of education puts forward something like this.. Blows my mind.. Appreceat your critical thinking approach here Ivan.. LOL yep I agree, BS it is.. ;-)

Watching🤘🏻🐺

And once again we see a rational argument put forward with evidence and actual proof of dogs by trainers who use tools whilstbon the force free side we see a woman screaming shouting and being dominating and also loosing her patience!

Jany made also a great point at the end. It's not only about the judges, there are so many details attitude, technique, cooperation, handling that need to be judged seperately and how should one judge be able to do that? 1. There needs to be a common agreement on what the judges want to see, defined in detail exercise by exercise and 2. split into different dimensions where points can be earned like in other olympic sports where judging with points can make or break the game, like boxing, horse riding, synchronized swimming etc. for instance technique, focus, handling and 3. use multiple judges and let them score independent from each other.

One thought about importance of breeding vs. importance of training. For example: look at how American Football or any other pro sport has developed. The rules and nature of a given sport, especially where a high degree of athletic performance is demanded, will per default design the requirements for a certain genetic predisposition. Strength, Speed, mental toughness are all prerequisites that are needed to enter the highest performance levels. Of course you can train, but your potential is genetically predetermined. Then there is sports IQ which is also a genetic prerequisite (potential) which determines how good you can move, interpret and process information during play. When it comes to how you perform on the highest level it is determined by genetical potential physically and mentally and the rules of the game will have a great impact on which characteristics will be considered when choosing an athlete. 20 years ago American Football because of the rules and game strategies was more about strength, today it is all about speed and change of direction capabilities. (quickness) The same applies for IGP. Today because competitors dont know what an excellent looks like any more on the highest level, because of different opinions and no consistent rule set you see a lot of different types of dogs. As soon as the rule set will be defined more precisely this will affect the selection of dogs dor IGP as well. Because if speed gets valued over power then to win in high performance competitions just as in American Football e.g. there would be an even more focused selection towards evolving power, speed and quickness. That is just an example, same applies obviously to tracking and other stuff. So a more precise ruleset and what we commonly agree on what the perfect picture looks like, it would also have a big impact on genetic selection and evolution.

Could absolutely listen forever, not my first listen ❤

The local igp club refused to take me coz I have a cane corso not a malinois or shepherd How can we improve cane corso ability in igp if we can't do igp

Look forward to part 2 👍

1:22: "Who wants to be a track layer, any volunteers...?" 😂😂😂😂 In our country, you HAVE to pass an exam and get a license to be a track layer. Seriously. I totally agree that this is one of the most serious things. Maybe the dog can not injure himself so easily as in protection, but you can easily get an insufficient score or disqualification if the track layer doesn't know what he is doing.

I watched obedience and protection a few times of Janny and a winner, Marc Oliver. Obedience of Janny was a very, very unfortunate event: in general, it would be near perfect, like out of this world, fast, energetic, but precise. There was this grave error in sit out of motion, though, where the dog was influenced twice, it seems. On the first command, it only changed the rithm of steps, and after a few steps, he lied down. A great pity for me, indeed, the dog is magnificent. It can happen sometimes. I'm no judge, but 11 points loss? How is this possible? Maybe because of a second influence? The dog of Marc Oliver had a series of issues: first 180° turn was a total failure, then left turns were bad, slow sit and down out of motion, stand exercise was a walk in the park. Aports were not bad, but not so convincing as Jannys, but then another grave difference: very slow down after "Voraus". Again, I'm no judge, but I saw similar exercises judged in mid eighties in the past, and not just on competition of world championship level. But in my opinion, Janny and his dog were discredited and overpenalized in protection the most. One can simply not compare the two: if Janny's protection deserved 96, then Marc Oliver's surely didn't, sorry. Bites were not full on at least two occasions, and the dog was not technically perfect. Like 90 or plus point or two. In contrast, Janny's dog presented himself as something like out of this world: unbelivable power and control. Janny, I'm sorry for you. For me, at least, you are the real winner.

I watched obedience and protection a few times of Janny and a winner Marc Oliver. Obedience of Janny was very, very unfortunate event: in general, it would be near perfect, like out of this world, fast, energetic, but precise. There was this grave error in sit out of motion, though, where the dog was influenced twice, it seems. On the first command, it only changed the rithm of steps, and after a few steps, he lied down. A great pity for me, indeed, the dog is magnificent. I'm no judge, but 11 points? How is this possible? Maybe because of a second influence? The dog of Marc Oliver had a series of issues: first 180° turn was a total failure, then left turns were bad, slow sit and down out of motion, stand exercise was a walk in the park. Aports were not bad, but not so convincing as Jannys, but then another grave difference: very slow down after "Voraus". Again, I'm no judge, but I saw similar exercises judged in mid eighties. But in my opinion, Janny and his dog were discredited in protection the most. One can simply not compare the two: if Janny's protection deserved 96, then Marc Oliver's surely didn't, sorry. Bites were not full on at least two occasions, and the dog was not technically perfect. On the edge of ninety, or so, it seems, not only for me. Janny, I'm sorry for you. For me, you are the real winner.

You can reverse the psychology easily with dogs and make them think they like something they don’t like.

Around 32:15. "The world is not so divided..." You would be surprised, how divided it is, even in the small countries in EU, the trainers are bitter enemies. Maybe you don't feel that, because you are one of the "important" people in sport, but that is the fact.

Does Jany know the meaning of "ya ni" in building japanese sentences.

I think Jany is onto something when he said about having 2 sets of judgements with technical and performance judging. As someone new to see the FMBB and the sport in general, seeing people like you Ivan and Jany struggling at a world championship is a bit heartbreaking and on some level, I can really understand the super high level of frustration. I did rewatch Janys performance and it's super world class, and I could probably sit all day watching this. Well deserved to be on the podium, now if it's for 2nd or 1st I don't know. I love seeing the magic happen and can't wait to hopefully be there myself one day. I definitely agree that there should be some sort of VAR system like in football (soccer) that can be played back if there is a conflict and say - hey this and this is conflicting with the reduction or addition of points. Now please explain the reasoning. Because a competition should not be "because the judges like certain handlers" therefor XYZ. Isn't the core of this to show the dogs? They are the ones performing here, the most. Of course the handlers are also in it for the commands and they put in the training, but this is truly in the core, in my opinion, about the dogs. And I think the organization has strayed away from that a bit far. I mean I'm really no-one to talk, I love the sport and the precision the many many amazing and talented dogs and handlers and hope to be there at some point. I am always so inspired by the TWC podcasts and this one really deserves a part 2, I hope very soon.

Would it be possible to judge the breeding quality of the dog considering the level of training vs the current exercises? Or would certain exercises need to be changed? Very cool POD cast Thanks

As each individual exercise is completed, the judges should enter a score, then the total points should be averaged. They shouldn’t be able to let it complete and manipulate the final score.

This is exactly what I teach, so glad I'm doing what this legend of dog training is teaching. I love the car analogy hilarious 😂 and explains it really well. Really great trainer. Thanks for sharing

its already hard enough for beginners to get into igp, with clubs not being very welcoming. its very frustrating to hear things like you need to have balls to judge. my most recent activities has been with a psa club who was extreamly welcoming and fun, and didnt mind that i was working towards igp. i think igp is going to loose beginners to more welcoming, inclusive fun clubs.

I love it Ivan! Some won't understand what you are doing through the ice cream, but I do. It's much deeper than just a cool reward.